Majuro Chamber of Commerce Circa 2005 -2007
Welcome to the Majuro Chamber of Commerce Website
Majuro Atoll, Republic of the Marshall Islands, located in the Central Pacific Ocean
Majuro Chamber of Commerce
P.O. Box 1226
Majuro, MH 96960
Republic of the Marshall Islands
The content you find here is from the site's 2005-2007 archived pages giving just a glimpse of what this site offered its visitors.
Current information about the Majuro Chamber of Commerce can be found at: /www.chamber-commerce.net/dir/2805/Marshall-Islands-Chamber-of-Commerce-in-Majuro.
The Majuro Chamber of Commerce is made up of around 40 local businesses, which employ approximately 1,800 Marshallese employees with a reported 9,700 dependents. The Chamber is non-political, non-aligned, Non Government Organization (NGO). The Chamber is associated with most of the Marshall Island's NGO's.
The Majuro Chamber of Commerce's preamble of the Articles of Incorporation:
The purposes of the Majuro Chamber of Commerce are:
* To develop, encourage, promote, and protect the commercial, professional, financial, and general business interest of the Marshall Islands
* To promote the civic interest and the general welfare of the community of the Marshall Islands
* To extend and promote the trade and commerce and to develop and protect the industry of the Marshall Islands
* To encourage the development of the transportation and communication facilities and the various natural and human resources of the Marshall Islands
* To procure and support laws and regulations desirable for the benefit of business in general
* To provide a forum for the reflection of sentiments of the business community regarding matters affecting it's interest; and
* To promote and preserve the practice by businessmen and their employees of sound traditional business ethics
In accordance with the preamble to the chambers' Articles of Incorporation, the Majuro Chamber of Commerce's mission is to be a representative media for business in the Marshall Islands and is to concern itself with the social and economical development of the Marshall Islands.
The Chamber logo is a drawing of a Marshallese Navigation Stick Chart
Marshallese Stick Chart Explanation
The Marshallese stick charts were constructed by palm ribs bound by coconut fibre with shells used to represent the islands. These stick charts are not charts in the western sense but are instructional and mnemonic devices concerned with swell patterns. They are not an essential navigational tool. There are three types of stick charts:
The Mattang differs from the conventional European chart in three important respects. Firstly, it is constructed for the purpose of indicating swell lines which the conventional charts ignore. Secondly, the attached shells are able to represent any islands with the stick chart being orientated at the angle most appropriate for the circumstances. Finally, the mattang are individual charts constructed by a navigator to suit his own particular requirements. Indeed, an entirely competent navigator cannot, under any circumstances, interpret a chart which he himself has not made. An example of a mattang chart is below:
In the example above, A, B, D and E represent islands. Thus AD and DB make up the rilib or east swell for island D, while EA and EB represent the kaelib or west swell for island E. tM is the southern half of the rilib or east swell for island A and vM is the southern portion of its kaelib. Similarly, uM is the northern section of island B's rilib and wM its kaelib.
The second form of chart, the Meddo is an extension of the mattang chart in that it shows swell patterns in relation to a number of islands. In this respect, the chart itself is an extension of the swell patterns of these islands.
The function of the meddo is to indicate the position of islands relative to observable swell phenomena, the true distances and directions between the islands being of only secondary importance.
The final type of stick chart is the rebbilib which covers the whole or a large part of the archipelago and is basically concerned more with islands than with swells.
A typical rebbilib stick chart.
A simplified rebbilib stick chart.
The Marshall Islands consist of two parallel island chains called Ratak and Ralik. These can be seen quite clearly on the map below.
Below is the corresponding rebbilib stick chart which depicts the islands of the Marshall Group.
October 17, 2006
Marshall Islands Chamber of Commerce Forum on Public Works in the RMI
Featuring Minister of Public Works, Matt Zackhras, and staff from MEC
MARSHALL ISLANDS JOURNAL 10/20/06
Dark times ahead?
By GIFF JOHNSON
The sobering reality of the Marshalls Energy Company's financial woes was brought home at Tuesday's Chamber of Commerce meeting.
MEC board chairman and Public Works Minister Matt Zackhras briefed the Chamber on challenges facing the capital's power utility company.
He explained that MEC is facing huge financial hurdles just to get fuel in for daily power plant operations.
He said a SK Networks fuel tanker was loading Tuesday with diesel for MEC, with an expected travel time of 11-12 days before it arrives Majuro at the end of October.
As of Tuesday, MEC had 180,000 gallons of usable diesel in its tanks. MEC uses 12,000-18,000 gallons per day to operate the power plant, so the diesel on hand gives Majuro a maximum 15 days supply on hand, but at the highest power use level, just 10 days.
Zackhras didn't sugarcoat or evade the challenges MEC is facing, delivering straightforward comments that, despite the depressing nature of the information, were well-received by those in attendance who left the meeting extremely well-informed.
Zackhras confirmed that the SK fuel shipment arriving soon has a price tag of about $3 million, but that MEC has only raised $1.5 million and “is now working on the other half.” Asked what SK will do if MEC doesn't come up with the other $1.5 million needed, Zackhras said it “will unload the amount of fuel paid for.”
To keep current with loan payments to Mobil, the Bank of Guam, and the US Rural Utility Service, as well as to pay for its operations costs, MEC spends about $800,000 per month. For the four months June through September, MEC collected an average of $1.1 million per month, though the amount dropped to about $850,000 last month - suggesting why MEC is having difficulty raising cash to pay for fuel shipments in the absence of fuel sales to fishing boats.
Historically, MEC has used revenue from fuel sales to fishing boats to subsidize the cost of power, but it has been forced this year to limit fuel sales to ships to conserve fuel for power plant operations. Zackhras said to break even on power costs, MEC would need to charge 24.5 cents for residential, 29.5 for business and 31.5 for government (it now charges 20.5, 25.5 and 25.5, respectively). He said a new Cabinet-approved fuel template allows MEC to adjust rates up or down depending on world market prices; two years ago when fuel prices were first skyrocketing, MEC could not immediately increase its rates in response and this “hurt MEC,” he said.
Zackhras said the goal is to return to how MEC operated before, with fuel supplied on consignment, meaning it could sell it and pay the supplier after it was sold. “Without the consignment system it totally changes the situation,” he said. “We can only bring in the fuel we can afford (to pay up front).”
Asked why the government had agreed to pay Mobil at a rate of 18 percent interest on the $5 million debt to the Guam-based company, Zackhras said the government tried to get it reduced. “It wasn't like we said 'good' and just agreed to it,” he said.
A 13-year fuel contract with Mobil ended in late 2004. Zackhras explained that by August 2005, MEC was in danger of running out of fuel, and it didn't yet have a contract with another supplier. So it worked out a plan to buy one shipment from Mobil, for which Mobil required a letter of guarantee by the government that included the 18 percent interest rate in the event of a default. “We took the recommendation to bring in the fuel with the letter of guarantee,” he said. “Otherwise Mobil wouldn't deliver fuel.”
Soon after this large diesel shipment was delivered to Majuro, MEC had to stop selling fuel to fishing boats to hold fuel for power plant operations until it could negotiate an alternative fuel supply contract - which compounded MEC's growing financial problems since it wasn't bringing in extra revenue from fuel sales. The SK Networks contract wasn't confirmed until January this year.
When MEC couldn't pay Mobil, company officials approached the government to work out a debt payment arrangement or go to court, he said. The government tried to negotiate the 18 percent down, with offers to Mobil of first right of refusal on a new fuel contract or lease options on MEC tanks, but “we ended up with the 18 percent interest,” he said, adding that he viewed this as a “punitive” action by Mobil. The High Court routinely sets interest payments at just nine percent.
Zackhras also confirmed that Mobil has given the government notice of its plan to turn over control of its tank farm operations in both Jaluit and Ebeye. He said that he's requested through the Chief Secretary that Mobil retain an independent company to survey the condition of Mobil tanks in these two islands, costs to fix them and other issues before any decision is made.
Mobil's proposal did not include its Majuro facilities. “The government's position is that if Mobil is going to give these facilities to the RMI - I hope they are not liabilities - then it should include Majuro facilities in the package and a contract to supply fuel,” he said.
Zackhras said general manager Billy Roberts will stay on for a temporary period of possibly three months, until the currently ongoing corporate audit of MEC is completed. He also noted President Kessai Note's request to keep Roberts on until power plant fire insurance process, fuel supply, and debt issues are resolved. “We need someone with the institutional knowledge,” he said.
From the Marshall Islands Journal Friday, October 20, 2006
Cabinet okays solid
The Cabinet has approved a plan to establish a solid waste company to manage waste in the capital, according to Public Works Minister Matt Zackhras.
It comes not a minute too soon, with the current Batkan dump expected to be filled to capacity by January, and most of the waste heavy equipment used by MALGov and Public Works at the end of its useful life, according to a report delivered by Ben Chutaro to Tuesday's Chamber of Commerce meeting. Chutaro showed about 30 photos of Majuro's pressing rubbish problems, commenting that “it's very tough to develop tourism under these conditions.”
Zackhras said that the Cabinet endorsement of the plan is a response to recommendations from both the government's Solid Waste Task Force and the Asian Development Bank's recent study on waste in Majuro.
“The details are being worked out through the ADB consultants as to how to make this new utility viable,” Zackhras told the Journal. “In the meantime, we will carry out the current solid waste system and everyone will operate as is until such time as the utility is ready to stand on its own.”
The new corporation is to be jointly owned by the RMI government and Majuro Atoll Local Government, according to the Cabinet decision of October 5. It is to oversee collection, recycling, reuse and disposal of solid waste.
The Cabinet directive names the new corporation as Majuro Atoll Waste Company, Inc.
Zackhras said that the government will need to subsidize the utility at first, “but the goal is to make it self-sustainable by involving all parties.”
Among the details that need to be acted on are establishing a board of directors and hiring a general manager, Zackhras said.
Establishing the new corporation has “solved the biggest problem” preventing improvements, businessman Jerry Kramer said. “We need to have one person responsible for waste management. Right now, everyone's responsible, so no one's responsible.”
In response to questions and concerns of the business community and local residents at the Tuesday meeting, Zackhras said he will ensure that all areas of the former dump are covered.
Marshall Islands Conservation Society official Steve Why said that group is just days away from launching a green waste recycling program at the dump and in the community to separate grass, bush and tree cuttings to produce compost material that can be used both for covering garbage areas at the dump and for fertilizer.
Roger Cooper, who is working with Why, said green waste accounts for 35 percent of what's going into the dump now.
People also expressed concern about the large numbers of children and adults who daily sift through garbage at the Batkan dump looking for aluminum cans and other usable goods.
Minister on possible sale of
Local business people want to know if MEC is going to be sold.
“Does anyone want to buy MEC,” MEC board chairman and Minister Matt Zackhras said in response at Tuesday's Chamber of Commerce meeting. “Give me an offer.”
On a more serious note, Zackhras said that before the RMI government “can decide to release (or maintain partial) control, or have a private sector company manage MEC, it needs a corporate audit - which is now being done.”
He said a draft report is expected in November. The US Interior Department is funding the corporate audit of MEC at the request of the board.
The recommendations from the audit will “allow the government to make decisions to entertain proposals submitted for our review,” he said.
Proposals for various investment and management schemes have been submitted by Pacific International Inc., SK Networks and TaiPower.
“Will it be sold?” he asked. “I don't know. Will it remain under government control? Perhaps some. Will MEC sell stocks? I hope so. It's all under discussion.”
Marshall Islands Chamber of Commerce
P.O. Box 1226 Majuro, MH 96960
Tel.: (692) 625-3177
Fax: (692) 625-3330
Tuesday, October 17, 2006 Marshall Islands Resort
Meeting called to order by President Jack Niedenthal at 12:01 P.M. Approximately 60 members and guests were in attendance. The next regular meeting will be on Tuesday, November 14, 2006.
o Minutes - approved electronically prior to meeting
o Revised Bylaws - approved
1. Hon. Mattlan Zachras, Minister of Public Works, Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI)
2. Smith Ysawa, Secretary of Public Works, Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI)
3. Imang Chong Gum, Public Works
4. Maurie William, MEC
5. Alinton Robert, Majuro Water and Sewer
6. Iva Reimers, Ministry of Resources and Development
7. Tony Tomlinson, BECA
8. Steve Wakefield, Acting GM, MEC
9. Steve Why, Marshall Islands Conservation Society
10. Mike Mullins, Consultant, Ministry of Resources and Development
11. JR Lopez-Vito, Sales and Operations Manager, TAT Petroleum (Guam) Inc., Mobil
12. Tony Neil, Executive Director, Pacific Power Association, Fiji
13. Sonja Stroud, US Embassy Intern
14. Terry Mellons, General Manager, Majuro Water and Sewer
15. BECA Consultant, Public Works PMU Unit
16. Herculano Lagunay, Public Works PMU Unit
o Financial - $3988.99 balance in BOG
o Chamber President's Remarks
Kommolol Anij kin ien in. I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the Hon. Minister of Public Works, Matt Zachhras, and all the other officials present connected with the Ministry of Public Works, members of the Diplomatic Corps, the general public in attendance, and of course our Marshall Islands Chamber of Commerce membership.
The Ministry of Public Works is very important to the lives of every man, woman and child in the Marshall Islands. The simple fact that this meeting was cancelled last week because of the high waves underscores this statement. The responsibility that Minister Zackhras and his crew has is huge, so on behalf of the Marshall Islands Chamber of Commerce I would like to thank you all for being here at this forum.
Today we are going to try to talk about two main topics: solid waste disposal and the energy situation here in the RMI, along with a few other miscellaneous items. We have many questions, so I would like to try to keep the discussion moving. Because we have so much ground to cover today, I would ask that when recognized members of the audience ask questions and try not to make speeches.
After the Minister's opening remarks, Ben Chutaro will give a short power point presentation about the solid waste problem here in the RMI. Then we will go immediately into our Q & A session.
Thank you all again for coming today.
o Guest Speaker - Mattlan Zachras
I would like to thank the Chamber of Commerce for inviting the Ministry of Public Works today. The Public Works staff is here today along with Majuro Water and Sewer, and MEC staff. Project Manager Tony Tomlinson is also here today. We weren't able to get the KAJUR staff.
The primary responsibilities of Public Works is to upgrade government property, maintain outer island airfields, maintain the public easement (road) in Majuro, manage the energy sector, and maintain the Majuro public landfill site. Some outer island airfields need upgrading. This will require more funds. Some airfields are closing down.
Work needs to be done with the landfill site. Government agreed to accept an Asian Development Bank (ADB) Technical Assistance (TA) grant to study the requirements. One of the purposes of this ADB TA is to increase “ownership” of the solid waste issue by all concerned. A separate corporation is being incorporated now. This has been a primary recommendation of the ADB TA and the Solid Waste Taskforce. Once incorporated, government will select a Board of Directors. The Board will then select a general manager.
Other interested parties such as the Marshall Islands Conservation Society have been active in the area of solid waste such as in the solicitation of other grants to help with the solution.
The energy sector is comprised of Jaliut, Wotje, KAJUR, MEC, and MWSC. Everyone in the Marshall Islands has been affected by recent fuel price increases. There is a US Department of the Interior TA presently studying electricity costs and rates. KAJUR is going through challenges. Power rationing is still occurring even though new or repaired engines have been delivered. MEC is assisting with some remaining technical issues.
There is a pending JICA water project that is in the design phase now.
Guest Presentation - Ben Chutaro showed a PowerPoint presentation about solid waste in Majuro.
o Questions - except as noted otherwise, all answers were from Mattlan Zachras
Q. Chamber. We currently have a split responsibility between MALGOV and Public Works on the responsibilities for the rubbish collection and the responsibilities at the dump sites. What is your opinion on who should be totally responsible for the collections and dump site, MALGOV or Public Works, or do you have another suggestion?
Q. Chamber. What is PW position on the proposed Solid waste corporation? What is the hold up in getting this corporation approved? What is the timetable--if any--for a decision on who will be responsible for collecting and the proper disposal and handling of the waste at the dumpsite?
A. The timetable depends on how we all cooperate. MALGOV handles collection. EPA provides the regulations. Public Works manages the dumpsite. The government has allocated $350,000 for this year. The new authority could be incorporated as early as this week.
Q. Neal Skinner. Will any work be subbed out?
A. We hope it can.
Q. Carmen Bigler. When with the authority start to work? Will it take a long time to work? It's important to start working now.
A. The Solid Waste Taskforce has been a disappointment having accomplished little even though staffed with capable people. The authority needs to select the right board members.
Q. David Strauss. Why can't we cover the dump?
A. Equipment has been down. Alternative equipment increases cost. But, I'll do it.
Q. Chamber. Has MALGOV had any meetings with Public Works regarding the poor condition of the rubbish bins and refuse trucks?
A. We've had a few meetings and provided some funds.
Q. Danny Muno. In 2004 the ROC offered to donate bins. The RMI didn't accept. Why?
A. Jerry Kramer. The RMI prioritizes the application of a single ROC allocation. The bins never had a high enough priority.
A. Why not do it right now? Perhaps we should have covered bins.
Q. Steve Why. We plan to fix the dumpsters and paint them green Will Public Works and the Chamber of Commerce support this?
A. Public Works will match funds.
A. Jack Niedenthal. Tell us, and we'll do it.
Q. Art Coburn. Why are small bins better?
A. Ben Chutaro. Small binds allow compaction and fewer costly trips to the dump.
A. Roger Cooper. I'm working with Steve Why. We're days away from doing something with green waste that constitutes 35 - 50% of the landfill. We'll turn it into compost. In four months, these compost piles will be suitable for use in covering the dump and growing plants. Green painted waste bins will be going out to the entire island.
A. Ben Chutaro. Business waste amounts to 30% of the landfill.
Q. Chamber. Why has the Solid Waste Task Force been having meetings since 2001 with nothing to show for all this time spent meeting?
Q. Chamber. Is the public dumpsite safe? Why is there no security at the dump as required by the Solid Waste Regulations?
A. Public Works has someone there. It's hard to push people away. A better approach is to move the cans to some other place.
A. Carmen Bigler. We should put a fence around the dump for better security. We can do public awareness training. And we can do like the Salvation Army and pick up roadside donations.
A. Steve Why. People now scavenging in the dump will be given a job.
Q. Chamber. What is the estimated life of the seawall at the dump? Are there plans to extend the seawall at the dump a hundred feet in the Rita direction?
A. There is a short lifespan. We're looking for ways to do it better. We're working with the ADB engineer to extend the life of the current dump.
Q. Chamber. Do you feel that we can safely burn the rubbish? What is PW position on the incinerator? Have they used it? Do they plan to use it?
A. We should burn rubbish. But there have been resident complaints. We're looking for the correct burning equipment.
Q. Chamber. Is the government considering the recommendations brought forth by the current ADB study on solid waste management?
Q. Tom Maus. Tarawa was successful in can recycling due to a tax on cans.
A. This is being considered. The Cabinet wants to wait for the new corporation.
A. Jerry Kramer. I'm told that it hasn't worked well in Tarawa.
A. Ben Chutaro. The trouble with Tarawa is that it's a government project. It should be run by the private sector.
A. Jerry Kramer. We've made progress with this new corporation.
A. We have the same challenges as other Pacific islands.
Q. Chamber. Do MEC, KAJUR and other public Power authorities that we have in the RMI all fall under the authority of PW? Who does KAJUR/MEC/others report to, and is the entity that these agencies report to also in charge of creating policies and directives for them to follow?
A. All ultimately report to Public Works, but the Boards are responsible.
Q. Chamber. Since the breakdown of KAJUR, who has control of it now? We know MEC manages KAJUR but if there is a board for KAJUR, who are the board members and how are members selected?
A. KAJUR is now under the MEC Board of Directors.
Q. Chamber. Is MEC going to be sold? Is it going to be offered as a public company and sell stock? Will it remain under government control?
A. The government is now doing its due diligence. According to the bylaws, stock can be sold, and MEC can engage in joint ventures on either the distribution side or with fuel sales. We expect a draft report from the DOI sponsored consultants in November. Then the government can make a decision regarding any offers.
Q. Chamber. How many households in Majuro have had the power shut off? Do you feel the ones that have been disconnected will ever be reconnected?
A. Greg, MEC. 310 customers have been disconnected for non-payment. Collection efforts vary but ultimately collection is pursued through the AG's office.
Q. David Strauss. How about prepaid meters like Ebeye?
A. Ebeye has 3 million in receivables even with the prepaid meters. There hasn't been good management of this on Ebeye.
Q. Chamber. Who decided on the power rate structure for MEC?
A. In 2005 the government approved a tariff template based on published world oil prices. Now MEC management proposes rates, and the MEC Board can approve based on this template.
Q. Art Coburn. Will costs now come down?
A. David Strauss. The oil in the tanks has already been purchased at a fixed price.
Q. Jack Niedenthal. Are we almost out of fuel?
A. Yes. The tanker is loading today and will arrive about the time that we run out of oil. It takes the tanker 12-15 days to arrive. MEC now has 180,000 gallons of oil.
Q. Jack Niedenthal. Have we stopped selling fuel?
Q. Jack Niedenthal. Why are there scheduled power outages on weekdays when businesses are open?
A. MEC staff person. People want to do their laundry and shopping on Saturdays. Employees don't want to work on Sunday.
Q. Art Coburn. Do we have a national emergency fuel reserve?
Q. David Strauss. How much will this load of fuel cost?
A. We need 3 million for this shipload, and we now have half of that.
Q. Jack Niedenthal. What happens if you can't find the other 1.5 million?
A. They only unload what we pay for.
Q. Jack Niedenthal. What's the plan to pay off the debts?
A. We'll try to consolidate the debts. Some of the pending MEC proposals deal with that. Were we to charge our customers enough to cover our present costs to operate MEC, we would have to raise “lifeline” customers from 20 to 21 cents per kilowatt hour; residents from 20.5 to 24.5, commercial from 25.5 to 29.5, and government from 25.5 to 31.5.
Q. Jack Niedenthal. Will the fishing vessels stop coming if we can't reliably supply them with fuel?
A. We went from a consignment system to now having to “pay as you go.” The 8.9 million balance of the RUS loan costs 270 thousand per quarter.
A. Steve Wakefield. The insurance claim is under review.
A. When you're on a consignment arrangement, if you stop selling fuel the fuel in your tanks becomes instant debt.
Q. David Strauss. Is it true that Mobil is pulling out of Jaliut and Ebeye?
A. True. Mobil has told us that there are no economics of scale there.
Q. Ben Chutaro. What happened to the letter that the Chamber of Commerce wrote to David Cohen requesting that the US State Department investigate Mobil oil business practices in the Marshall Islands?
A. Tom Maus. Ask Al Fower. This relates to the US Department of the Interior.
Q. David Strauss. When will Mobil stop serving Jaliut and Ebeye?
A. We don't know yet.
Q. Ben Chutaro. Does Mobil want to unload its Uliga tank farm to reduce their costs?
A. Yes. This is also true for the FSM.
Q. Chamber. Does MEC have any plans on offering residents of Majuro solar alternatives vs. not having power for lights and refrigeration? Is there grant money available to set up solar systems on Majuro?
Q. Chamber. Is the water that is provided to the households in Majuro from MWSC safe to drink at the start of the line? at the end of the line?
Q. Chamber. MEC lost $600,000 in 2003 (not counting Compact contribution), over a million in 2004, and over three million in 2005. What were the causes of the losses?
Q. Chamber. Who was responsible for agreeing to pay Mobil 18% interest on the outstanding debt? Why was this done?
Q. Chamber. How is the recruiting process for new GM coming along? Have candidates been selected and interviewed?
A. The current general manager will stay on for approximately three months and, perhaps based on the President's desires, will stay until all current issues are solved.
Q. Chamber. Why doesn't PW clean and landscape all public areas and roadsides?
Q. Chamber. When will they fix the grave-sized pothole on the road by the Pub? Who is responsible for surveying the roads for potholes and making sure they get repaired?
Q. Chamber. Are those PW guys sweeping the road or prisoners (we could make better use of our prisoners if they are not the ones sweeping instead of government workers)?
Q. Chamber. Are there any ongoing investigations regarding illegal hookups of electricity and water?
Q. Jack Niedenthal. Who is responsible for fixing the roads, cleanup, etc.?
A. Public Works is in charge of surveys of the road. This is a huge task. It's a lot of work to upgrade the road form the airport to Laura. A frequent problem is the availability of asphalt. We have some now leftover from the airport project. We work with the Ministry of Justice to utilize prisoner labor.
Q. Art Coburn. I'd like to thank Public Works for the speed bumps near the new Baptist Adjeltake School.
Q. Carlos Domnick. The President mentioned a disaster coordination committee that failed. Who is in the committee, and why did it fail to mobilize?
A. Everything has been said by the President.
Q. David Strauss. How many engineers do you have including BECA?
o Committee Reports - None
Meeting adjourned at 2:30 PM.